I am a layman in science, but I am enthusiastic about promoting its development. China cannot advance without science. We still lag behind in this respect. You have established an international centre of science and culture -- the World Laboratory. This is an important pioneering undertaking and one that will benefit Third World countries in particular. China belongs to the Third World, so our scientists and engineers should take an active part in the work of the Laboratory.

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With regard to the question of opposing bourgeois liberalization, I am the one who has talked about it most often and most insistently. Why? First, because there is now a trend of thought among the masses, especially among the young people, in favour of liberalization. Second, because this trend has found support from the sidelines. For example, there have been some comments from people in Hong Kong and Taiwan who are opposed to our Four Cardinal Principles and who think we should introduce the capitalist system lock, stock and barrel, as if that were the only genuine modernization. What is this liberalization? It is an attempt to turn China's present policies in the direction of capitalism. The exponents of this trend are trying to lead us towards capitalism. That is why I have explained time and again that our modernization programme is a socialist one. Our decision to introduce the open policy and assimilate useful things from capitalist societies was made only to supplement the development of our socialist productive forces.

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Mike Wallace: Mr. Chairman, what do you make of Mikhail Gorbachev's recent speech in Vladivostok?

Deng Xiaoping: There is something new in Gorbachev's speech in Vladivostok, and that is why we have expressed cautious welcome to what is new and positive in it. However, his remarks also show that he has not taken a big step. Soon after Gorbachev made his speech, an official from the Foreign Ministry of the Soviet Union also made a speech that was different in tone. This shows that the Soviet authorities have to decide among themselves what policies to pursue with regard to China, so we still have to wait and see.

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During this visit to Tianjin, I should like to see your development district and have a look around the city. I'd like to see the harbour as well.

We must continue to open to the outside world. Otherwise, we shall not be able to invigorate the economy. We must never close our doors. The Development District here is very good, indeed. Since it has earned a high reputation and improved the environment for investment, foreign investors should feel confident.

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While we are correcting unhealthy tendencies and cracking down on crime, we must leave matters that fall within the scope of the law to judicial institutions; it is not appropriate for the Party to concern itself with such matters. The Party should concern itself with inner-Party discipline, leaving legal problems to the state and the government. If the Party intervenes in everything, it will not help the people understand the importance of the rule of law. This is a question of the relations between the Party and the government, of the political structure of the country. I think we should raise this question at the Thirteenth National Party Congress next year and try to straighten it out.

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Historically speaking, your Rong family has performed meritorious service in helping to develop China's industry, thus making contributions to the nation. The growth of national industry helps to advance the progress of history, while the negative elements of capitalism are another aspect of the story. The reunion of your family members at this time is a happy event, an expression of unity and a rehearsal for our great national reunion. We should strive for the great unity of the entire Chinese nation.

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In general, the present economic situation is good. But how about the future? What obstacles are we going to run into? As I see it, there are two or three problems that might hold up the growth of our economy, if we fail to solve them.

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It is almost 37 years since the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949. During that time China has followed a tortuous road with alternating periods of smooth development and setbacks. After the "cultural revolution" we made a sober appraisal of the situation and thought over the course we were going to follow from then on. The turning point was marked by the Third Plenary Session of our Party's Eleventh Central Committee, which defined a series of new principles and policies.

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Our reform began in the countryside, and it has achieved initial success there. However, some rural areas are more developed than others. About 10 per cent of them, mainly the arid areas in the Northwest and some areas in the Southwest, have not yet lifted themselves out of poverty. It is our policy to let some people and some regions prosper before others, so that they can bring along the backward regions. The advanced regions have the obligation to help the backward. We keep to the socialist road in order to attain the ultimate goal of common prosperity, but it is impossible for all regions to develop at the same pace. We used to practise egalitarianism, with everyone "eating from the same big pot". In fact, that practice meant common backwardness and poverty, which caused us much suffering. The reform is designed, first and foremost, to break with egalitarianism, with the practice of having everyone "eat from the same big pot". It seems to me that we are taking the right path.

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